[ge-talk] Vision for a usable commandline

[Ari Haviv]

Learning curve is bad because I would really like all those windows users to
appreciate the commandline and scripting. I don't think it has to be so
either or. Many have picked up javascript on the web.

Right now it's "GUI for you and bash for us." It would be like giving
programmers a choice between visual basic or assembly. You'd rather have
C++, right?

On 1/11/07, Niklas Nisbeth <niklas at nisbeth.dk> wrote:
>
> Learning curve is not bad!
>
> Sometimes you need it to make a good tool that's nice to use.
>
> If leaning curve is such a priority, there's one thing that needs to be
> changed before all others: C++!
>
> > Well, if the Wii is common inspiration, then we're on the same page.
> > It
> > changed the way people play video games, and you can still play every
> > Nintendo game ever made on the one console.
> >
> > The cygwin approach sounds like a good one. VMS? I'm using its
> > bastard
> > grandchild right now (XP Pro).
> >
> > The original BeOS seems like the best inspiration as far as app
> > compatibility goes. Porting posix apps was a possibility, but there
> > were
> > many advantages and incentives to writing native apps. The result was
> > many
> > native apps that were nicer to use, and in many ways superior to the
> > Windows/UNIX competition.
> >
> > I don't want to say we must do any one thing or another, but I used
> > Alphagrip as an example for a reason. Great idea + great product +
> > HUGE
> > learning curve = Limited sales.
> >
> > Of course, the Wii is the perfect example, because it demonstrated
> > that
> > revolutionary changes in design don't have to result in a huge
> > learning
> > curve.
> >
> > --Adrian
> >
> > On 1/10/07, Ari Haviv <arielbhaviv at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 1/10/07, Adrian Sanabria <adrian.sanabria at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I don't see any reason why you can't do both with the command
> > > > line.
> > > > Start with a UNIX-based command-line, keeping backwards-
> > > > compatibility with
> > > > the UNIX commands that many of us are already familiar with from
> > > > using
> > > > Linux, UNIX, and even BeOS. Then build on it. I don't see
> > > > anything wrong
> > > > with having more than one way to do something on the command
> > > > line. You can
> > > > please the old hackers and UNIX crowd, while competing with new
> > > > tech like
> > > > Powershell. Command line apps are generally small, so having
> > > > extra
> > > > functionality shouldn't result in much (if any) bloat in the OS.
> > >
> > >
> > > What about VMS? Sorry mom :)
> > > I'm in favor of maybe something like cygwin or perhaps a parallel
> > > "made
> > > for haiku" cli alongside bash/terminal
> > >
> > > As far as POSIX compatibility, I don't see any other way to go.
> > > That was
> > > > always a great benefit of the original BeOS, that it (usually)
> > > > didn't take a
> > > > lot of effort to port a UNIX app over to it. The benefit of POSIX
> > > > vs. Win32
> > > > porting is that all the OS-side stuff is open, published and
> > > > available with
> > > > a huge amount of open source apps just waiting to be ported over.
> > > > Most of
> > > > the software on the Windows side that is open source was ported
> > > > from Linux
> > > > anyway, and usually uses Cygwin libraries to run on Windows.
> > >
> > >
> > > ported apps are good to begin with but there is a danger you end up
> > > looking like another linux distro with gtk+ apps like gimp.
> > > That is why i speak of a vision...to get people to think of new
> > > ideas now
> > > and possibilities for the future.
> > >
> > > We need to get off the ground but once we're secure, we shouldn't
> > > be
> > > scared to change. Apple and linux *must* be unix so we have a
> > > unique
> > > opportunity that they don't. But that doesn't mean we have to
> > > change right
> > > away. We just shouldn't say we *must* be like unix or any other OS
> > >
> > > Bottom line is that you don't want to create huge learning curves,
> > > and
> > > > incompatible APIs while trying to create the perfect OS. You'll
> > > > end up with
> > > > a great idea that no one will use. You were pointing out the
> > > > strategic
> > > > placement of BeOS back in the MacOS9 days. The important
> > > > difference back
> > > > then was that people cared about the OS. Nowadays, people care
> > > > about their
> > > > apps. THAT's the first thing they want to know when they use an
> > > > OS, "Where's
> > > > Firefox? Does it run on this OS? Why not?". You don't want to
> > > > start from
> > > > scratch on monolithic apps, like a web browser. Netpositive was
> > > > great back
> > > > then, when we were viewing the equivalent of webpages written on
> > > > stone
> > > > tablets, but these days, everyone expects their Web 2.0 sites to
> > > > work
> > > > flawlessly, or they go somewhere else.
> > >
> > >
> > > yes, firefox is probably the strongest argument for posix. It's not
> > > easy
> > > to make a browser compatible with the world wide wild web and it
> > > has the
> > > best real world compatibility of any non-IE browser. Still, people
> > > complain
> > > it's slow, bloated and not multi threaded.
> > >
> > > The mac people care about their OS. We need some of that. For
> > > example,
> > > they know that firefox isn't doing something right when it uses its
> > > own
> > > spell checker instead of the macos spell checker.
> > >
> > > Our OS isn't just a place to have the same old apps run a bit nicer
> > > but
> > > also pushes people to consider new ways of how apps should work.
> > > and look
> > > like.
> > >
> > > I agree that we shouldn't implement a broken idea in favor of
> > > backwards
> > > > compatibility, but at the same time, we don't want huge learning
> > > > curves to
> > > > kill public interest. 99% of people are too scared to try
> > > > something new that
> > > > is too different.
> > >
> > >
> > > Are you talking about Windows users ? They will be scared by haiku
> > > being
> > > too unix like. At least I believe the deskbar should be on the
> > > bottom and
> > > control-c should be default for copy :)
> > >
> > > Just for the record though, should we go the "all new" route, I'll
> > > still
> > > > be one of the %1 plugging my Alphagrip <http://www.alphagrips.com
> > > > > into
> > > > Haiku.
> > > >
> > > > --Adrian
> > >
> > >
> > > This is glass elevator and I hope we can discuss even crazier far
> > > out
> > > ideas. look at the Nintendo Wii. Lower specs and even the die hard
> > > halo fans
> > > want it because it completely changes the way people play video
> > > games.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
>
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